Bobby Flay talks in depth about his latest cookbook, Showing Love, and the review that shaped his career

Tinfoil Swans Podcast

In this episode

Bobby Flay has been a staple on Food Network almost since its inception, has written 18 cookbooks, and is quite a household name. But what gets lost in the sauce is that he is a James Beard Award-winning restaurant chef who has changed the restaurant scene in bold and groundbreaking ways. Flay came to Tinfoil Swans to talk about his new book Chapter 1his rules for visitors, his competitive behavior and why a tiny chef’s coat made him cry.

Get to know our guest

Bobby Flay dropped out of high school at the age of 16, got his GED and set out to learn the culinary trade. In 1984, he was a member of the first graduating class of the French Culinary Institute (now the Institute of Culinary Education) and began working for his mentor Jonathan Waxman. That training and a formative stint as a chef at the now-closed Miracle Grill in New York City enabled him to open his first restaurant, Mesa Grill, in 1991 and launch a storied on-screen career on the fledgling Food Network. Flay has won multiple James Beard Awards, including Rising Star Chef of the Year, Who’s Who of Food & Beverage in America and Television Food Show (National), as well as multiple nominations. Flay is a four-time Daytime Emmy Award winner, the first chef to receive a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, and currently owns Amalfi and Brasserie B in Las Vegas, as well as the Bobby’s Burgers franchise. His eighteenth book, Chapter One: Iconic recipes and inspiration from a groundbreaking American chefwas released in October 2024.

Get to know our host

Kat Kinsman is editor-in-chief of Food & Wine and author of Hello, fear: a life with bad nervesHost of the Food & Wine podcast and founder of Chefs With Issues. Previously, she was senior food and beverage editor at Extra Crispy, managing editor and executive editor at Tasting Table, and founding editor of CNN Eatocracy. She won a 2024 IACP Award for Narrative Food Writing With Recipes and a 2020 IACP Award for Personal Essay/Memoir, and her work was included in the 2020 and 2016 editions The Best American Food Writing. She was nominated for a James Beard Broadcast Award in 2013, won an EPPY Award for Best Food Website with 1 Million Unique Visitors per Month in 2011, and was a finalist in 2012 and 2013. She is a sought-after international keynote speaker and presenter on food culture and mental health in the hospitality industry and former vice chair of the James Beard Journalism Committee.

Highlights from the episode

At school and learning in his own way

“When I was a kid we weren’t tested every 10 minutes for learning difficulties, but I definitely had one. I don’t even know how to define it, but I had no interest in learning from an English textbook.” I didn’t know it at the time, but I had to work with my hands to really get excited about anything. So I got lucky seven years later, but when I was 10 I started really struggling at school, and I didn’t care about schoolwork at all, I did all the things that city kids did. I was closed then young to know something.

About Wolfgang Puck and finding moods

“We didn’t have this food culture at all (in 1983). The only one I started hearing about – this is the time before the Internet and any kind of electronic communication – was this guy in LA who was just becoming famous named Wolfgang Puck. “He had this restaurant, Spago, and all Celebrities, actors and stars went to his restaurant. People came to the restaurant where I worked and they wanted to have a menu and show it. So you learned about things very slowly – by word of mouth – but I took an Austrian who revolutionized food in America. He started with that to. He opened Spago and said, “You know what? Good food doesn’t have to mean bedtime food. It can be bizarre. It can be fun, can be full of energy. I can put duck sausage or smoked salmon on a pizza and that can be really good cooking.

About the presence in its restaurants

“I don’t have any restaurants in New York anymore, but I always did. For 30 years I had two or three restaurants at any given time. And people said to me, I mean, ten times a night, ‘I can do that.’ “I don’t think you’re here.” And I think, “This is where I want to be.” I think if you don’t pay attention to your restaurants, the people who work for you won’t pay attention either. You are the person who cares the most, so you have to lead by example, and you have to be there to inspire people. Even if you are busy with other things, the restaurants have always been the most important thing for me.

To the review that made him famous

“In 1988, I was cooking at a restaurant called Miracle Grill in the East Village. I was the opening chef there and was there for three years. Back then, the East Village was a very dangerous place to walk around, and even before that it became the hip place it is today. That was the rule, no starter but a main course because it was a kind of underground restaurant. Compare now with then, there was just New York Magazine, The New York Timesmaybe a few other things. Village voice was an important publication, particularly for this neighborhood. My review in Village voice was for Miracle Grill and was probably one of the most important pieces of media I got there. In New York MagazineJane Freiman was The Underground Gourmet, which cost less than $25 per person. The title of the review was “Miracle on First.” It blew up the restaurant, but that was the biggest thing a restaurant like this could possibly do.”

That wasn’t the case with the Best New Chef Award

“[In 1992] I received a call from someone Food and wine One of my acquaintances said, “I just want to let you know that you’re going to be the New York representative for Best New Chef.” I thought, “That’s great.” Mesa Grill was making a lot of noise. To be fair, there wasn’t much going on in the world, we were basically in a recession and Mesa Grill and a handful of other restaurants were getting all the attention. When I got the call I was obviously thrilled, it was one of the best calls I’ve gotten in my career. And then suddenly the business side Food and wine decided not to do this for a year and settled on something called the DiRōNA Awards. I don’t even know exactly what it was, but it was some kind of restaurant fare. The readership lost their minds. They said, “Wait, what? “This is our favorite issue of the year and we get to see who these new chefs are.” Remember, this is a pre-internet era. This is how we got all our information about the food world. By the next year, I was old.

On the little chef’s coat

[Note, at the 2023 Food & Wine Classic in Aspen, Flay was made an honorary Best New Chef and given the traditional framed miniature chef’s coat to make up for the mishap.]

“Well, I cried, but no one noticed. I don’t outwardly get emotional about something like this very often, but I was so touched that someone thought about it, because how many years ago was that? You talk.” About 30 years old? Who will worry about this? The fact that you thought about it and gave me this award – I’m sure everyone in the audience was like, “What do they do?” But I found it so special and incredibly touching that I definitely got emotional.

About showing love

“When I get an interview and people say to me, ‘What do you do to relax?’ I say, “I cook,” and that always surprises her. But I cook at my house all the time. I can’t just say, “Let’s just order pizza.” It’s the way I show my appreciation for my friends, my family, and the people I know even better would like to get to know. It’s an important part of me, when you go on TV there’s this dynamic that creates you automatically become less talented in people’s minds. A chef on TV, but not a real chef. I stopped thinking about “I can really cook” 25 years ago. Then you have to stop or you’ll lose your mind.

About the podcast

Food & Wine has been leading the conversation about food, drink and hospitality in America and around the world since 1978. Tinfoil Swans continues this legacy with a new series of intimate, informative, surprising and uplifting interviews with the biggest names in the culinary industry, telling never-before-heard stories about the successes, struggles and defining moments that made these personalities what they are they are today.

This season you’ll hear from icons and innovators like Daniel Boulud, Rodney Scott, Asma Khan, Emeril and EJ Lagasse, Claudia Fleming, Dave Beran and Will Poulter, Dan Giusti, Priya Krishna, Lee Anne Wong, Cody Rigsby, Kevin Gillespie, Pete Wells, David Chang, Raphael Brion, Christine D’Ercole, Channing Frye, Nick Cho, Ti Martin, Kylie Kwong, Pati Jinich, Yotam Ottolenghi, Dolly Parton and Rachel Parton George, Tom Holland, Darron Cardosa, Bobby Flay and other special guests talk in depth with host Kat Kinsman about their formative experiences; the dishes and meals from which they were made; their joys, doubts and dreams; and what’s on the menu in the future. Expect a feast that will nourish your brain and soul—and plenty of wisdom and quotable tidbits to enjoy.

New episodes appear every Tuesday. Listen and Follow: Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen.

These interview excerpts have been edited for clarity.

Editor’s Note: The downloadable transcript does not go through our standard editorial process and may contain inaccuracies and grammatical errors.